Adam Deen is an international public speaker on Muslim Apologetics.
A former Islam channel presenter who has been working in the field of Muslim apologetics for almost a decade. He has contributed to debates on issues ranging from religious philosophy and theology. His work draws on contemporary philosophy to defend Islam in debates. He has regularly appeared on mainstream TV.
Monday, 6 October 2008
Go ahead and sin because God loves you.
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well said. It is a built in human need to see the resultant outcome of whatever deeds he performs. if there is no law to perform justice for human acts (good or bad) then the need of God, or one should say belief in the existance of God extincts and viceversa.
I think you slip into gross caricature when you claim that:
'all those claiming to be Sufis are essentially Muslims struggling with living out their faith and seeking get out clauses to legitimise their lifestyles.'
I know several sufis and I am not aware they are looking for get out clauses for their sin!
On a more general note I am one of those folk who happen to think that living the Muslim life with its 5x a day prayers, halal food restrictions etc is extremely difficult in today’s world (i.e. London in 2008).
I think you have misunderstood my piece. I did not intended to attack Sufis; I have clearly stated that the notions in question are an abuse of Sufi teachings. What I would say is a caricature is the pseudo Sufi understanding of God’s Mercy, forgiveness and sin.
I know this isn't the main point in the post, but you wrote something that intrigued me. You described God as "The Most Just" but then said he could forgive a mountain of sin if he wanted to. So my question is, how are you defining "just", as forgiving law breaking when you feel like it clearly isn't justice according to any human standard. Imagine a legal system like that! It seems to me, therefore, that the Islamic conception of God is internally inconsistent and therefore false. It claims both that God is perfectly just, and that he is free to forgive without punishment. That's a big problem in the Bible to which the cross is the answer. What's yours?
One objection though, you've stated that the notions which you discussed in your article an abhoration or an abuse of Sufi teachings, I would like to point out that they are not really as such, they are equally an orthodox part of the Sufi tradition.
So for us as non-Sufis, and even those sufis such as Gibril Fouad Haddad and Uthman Vadillio who engage in polemical attacks upon non-Shar'iah observant Sufis, we fail to take into account that the genesis of Sufism and the very early schisms that produced Sufism witnessed such figures and teachings even before the post-Modern new age spiritualist world.
There are those who would like to distance such forms of Sufism as new, different and indeed unseen before, but it is merely the continuation of the legacy of people such as Ibn 'Arabi and Hallaj.
For those who disagree, I just recommend a quick browse of Henry Corbin and Louis Massignon works on Sufism and Islam.
Btw I am not defending this form of Sufism, and I am not a proponent of any form of Sufism, however to tarnish sufism without shariah as a form of sufism that is unorthodox is jus revisionist, it may be unorthodox if not alien to Islam, but not to sufism.
is not the whole shariah thing just a man-made invention?
it is true that the quran does, for example, specify crimes and punishments perhaps appropriate to a primitive and barbaric "failed state" 1400 years ago, but there is nothing in the quran to indicate that this should not change and evolve over time.
its the joining of the religion to judicial and governmental functions that was islams gretest strength in the years after the prophets death. it gave an integrated replacment to the failed "western empire" of rome, and the somewhat effete eastern empire of constantinople.
What does that have to do with anything in my post? I was asking for a definition of justice and a defence of the internal consistency of the Islamic conception of God.
To add to your post. The failing of modern Islam lies in the very notion of Judicial systems integrated with religion. To Muslims there is nothing but Islam.Therefore Judicial/Government systems are to be Islamic.Since the two are no longer separate the state becomes the arbiter for Islam and Sharia. Hence unfounded Hadiths creep dangerously into popular culture.The terrible results of which we are currently experiencing
To add to your post. The failing of modern Islam lies in the very notion of Judicial systems integrated with religion.
"Islam seems to be growing at a incredible rate, so please can we have evidence for this 'fall'"
To Muslims there is nothing but Islam.Therefore Judicial/Government systems are to be Islamic.
" To most non-muslim's there is nothing but agnosticism, and leading a non religious life, hence the judicial system has to be secular"
Since the two are no longer separate the state becomes the arbiter for Islam and Sharia.
" Hence the state becomes arbiter for agnosticism and secularism"
Hence unfounded Hadiths creep dangerously into popular culture.
" Can you provide evidence for this statement again (orientalist proof, since muslim acadaemia may not be good enough for you"
The terrible results of which we are currently experiencing
"what terrible results, I don't see muslims in non muslim countries killing their people etc. Nor do i see disproportionate killing 0f non muslims 5000 (non muslims) < 1000000 (muslims)"
I had hoped the world had moved forward sufficiently that we need no longer frighten our children with the concept of 'hell fire'.
" I so hoped people stopped being 'people' and started living their lives as they should in the best way possible, therefore not having to be scared or punished. I also wished I wasn't in detention for being a naughty boy at school. I also wish I could steal all the money in the world without going to prison"
I think the Muslim heaven will be a funny place to spend eternity, inhabited as it will be by the confused, having no knowledge of why they have been included.
Excluding the duped or just plain self righteous,those born before Mohamed will have a place. Those that have never heard of Mohamed will have a place too. Those that have heard of Mohamed but have no intellect to speak of will also find a comfy spot.Those that are Muslim but hardly worthy humans will find a place as will the insane and unborn.
Unfortunately, the excluded will the likes of myself that have heard of Mohamed but think he is mistaken, can look forward to empowering the pleasure of our creator whilst he burns my flesh forever in a pit of violent flame.
great piece of work, though i expected you to quote Al-A'raf (The Heights)[7:169] as it basically mentions what you're going after:
7:169 After them succeeded an (evil) generation: They inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the vanities of this world, saying (for excuse): "(Everything) will be forgiven us." (Even so), if similar vanities came their way, they would (again) seize them. Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them, that they would not ascribe to Allah anything but the truth? and they study what is in the Book. But best for the righteous is the home in the Hereafter. Will ye not understand?
17 comments:
Poetic!
well said. It is a built in human need to see the resultant outcome of whatever deeds he performs. if there is no law to perform justice for human acts (good or bad) then the need of God, or one should say belief in the existance of God extincts and viceversa.
what about those such as the fake sheikh (bin hidin') who induce others to commit great sins against thousands of people?
no doubt he lives according to sharia, but he does great evil.
Hi Adam
I think you slip into gross caricature when you claim that:
'all those claiming to be Sufis are essentially Muslims struggling with living out their faith and seeking get out clauses to legitimise their lifestyles.'
I know several sufis and I am not aware they are looking for get out clauses for their sin!
On a more general note I am one of those folk who happen to think that living the Muslim life with its 5x a day prayers, halal food restrictions etc is extremely difficult in today’s world (i.e. London in 2008).
I don’t know how you do it!
Paul
Hi Paul
Thanks for you comment.
I think you have misunderstood my piece. I did not intended to attack Sufis; I have clearly stated that the notions in question are an abuse of Sufi teachings. What I would say is a caricature is the pseudo Sufi understanding of God’s Mercy, forgiveness and sin.
I know this isn't the main point in the post, but you wrote something that intrigued me. You described God as "The Most Just" but then said he could forgive a mountain of sin if he wanted to. So my question is, how are you defining "just", as forgiving law breaking when you feel like it clearly isn't justice according to any human standard. Imagine a legal system like that! It seems to me, therefore, that the Islamic conception of God is internally inconsistent and therefore false. It claims both that God is perfectly just, and that he is free to forgive without punishment. That's a big problem in the Bible to which the cross is the answer. What's yours?
Cheers.
Adam,
Interesting thoughts,
One objection though, you've stated that the notions which you discussed in your article an abhoration or an abuse of Sufi teachings, I would like to point out that they are not really as such, they are equally an orthodox part of the Sufi tradition.
So for us as non-Sufis, and even those sufis such as Gibril Fouad Haddad and Uthman Vadillio who engage in polemical attacks upon non-Shar'iah observant Sufis, we fail to take into account that the genesis of Sufism and the very early schisms that produced Sufism witnessed such figures and teachings even before the post-Modern new age spiritualist world.
There are those who would like to distance such forms of Sufism as new, different and indeed unseen before, but it is merely the continuation of the legacy of people such as Ibn 'Arabi and Hallaj.
For those who disagree, I just recommend a quick browse of Henry Corbin and Louis Massignon works on Sufism and Islam.
Btw I am not defending this form of Sufism, and I am not a proponent of any form of Sufism, however to tarnish sufism without shariah as a form of sufism that is unorthodox is jus revisionist, it may be unorthodox if not alien to Islam, but not to sufism.
is not the whole shariah thing just a man-made invention?
it is true that the quran does, for example, specify crimes and punishments perhaps appropriate to a primitive and barbaric "failed state" 1400 years ago, but there is nothing in the quran to indicate that this should not change and evolve over time.
its the joining of the religion to judicial and governmental functions that was islams gretest strength in the years after the prophets death. it gave an integrated replacment to the failed "western empire" of rome, and the somewhat effete eastern empire of constantinople.
now it is its greatest weakness. tom
Slimewad :
"But sincerity is key here."
Yayoort,
What does that have to do with anything in my post? I was asking for a definition of justice and a defence of the internal consistency of the Islamic conception of God.
Tom
To add to your post. The failing of modern Islam lies in the very notion of Judicial systems integrated with religion.
To Muslims there is nothing but Islam.Therefore Judicial/Government systems are to be Islamic.Since the two are no longer separate the state becomes the arbiter for Islam and Sharia. Hence unfounded Hadiths creep dangerously into popular culture.The terrible results of which we are currently experiencing
Frank
Adam
I had hoped the world had moved forward sufficiently that we need no longer frighten our children with the concept of 'hell fire'.
Frank
To add to your post. The failing of modern Islam lies in the very notion of Judicial systems integrated with religion.
"Islam seems to be growing at a incredible rate, so please can we have evidence for this 'fall'"
To Muslims there is nothing but Islam.Therefore Judicial/Government systems are to be Islamic.
" To most non-muslim's there is nothing but agnosticism, and leading a non religious life, hence the judicial system has to be secular"
Since the two are no longer separate the state becomes the arbiter for Islam and Sharia.
" Hence the state becomes arbiter for agnosticism and secularism"
Hence unfounded Hadiths creep dangerously into popular culture.
" Can you provide evidence for this statement again (orientalist proof, since muslim acadaemia may not be good enough for you"
The terrible results of which we are currently experiencing
"what terrible results, I don't see
muslims in non muslim countries killing their people etc. Nor do i see disproportionate killing 0f non muslims 5000 (non muslims) < 1000000 (muslims)"
I had hoped the world had moved forward sufficiently that we need no longer frighten our children with the concept of 'hell fire'.
" I so hoped people stopped being 'people' and started living their lives as they should in the best way possible, therefore not having to be scared or punished. I also wished I wasn't in detention for being a naughty boy at school. I also wish I could steal all the money in the world without going to prison"
Sorry anonymous but I do not reply to completely anonymous posts. And in any event - I just did not understand your query or comments.
Frank
No answer so lets move on!
I think the Muslim heaven will be a funny place to spend eternity, inhabited as it will be by the confused, having no knowledge of why they have been included.
Excluding the duped or just plain self righteous,those born before Mohamed will have a place. Those that have never heard of Mohamed will have a place too. Those that have heard of Mohamed but have no intellect to speak of will also find a comfy spot.Those that are Muslim but hardly worthy humans will find a place as will the insane and unborn.
Unfortunately, the excluded will the likes of myself that have heard of Mohamed but think he is mistaken, can look forward to empowering the pleasure of our creator whilst he burns my flesh forever in a pit of violent flame.
Do bogymen exist? To some people they do.
Frank
great piece of work,
though i expected you to quote Al-A'raf (The Heights)[7:169] as it basically mentions what you're going after:
7:169 After them succeeded an (evil) generation: They inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the vanities of this world, saying (for excuse): "(Everything) will be forgiven us." (Even so), if similar vanities came their way, they would (again) seize them. Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them, that they would not ascribe to Allah anything but the truth? and they study what is in the Book. But best for the righteous is the home in the Hereafter. Will ye not understand?
but still, great work
jazaka Alah khayran
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